Orbital Reflectors is a good example of that; I worked on that for 10 years. And of course that will accumulate, so that will have long term implications as well. There is a certain something about the ever-present danger of death that makes living so great.”, “One of the things that I’m striving for is an authenticity, to do things which feel natural and make choices which feel authentic and real. And it is one of these extraordinary things that can happen in times of crises, and someone like Rebecca Solnit talks about this a lot. In the beginning you're very much involved in finding your voice and locating yourself artistically. Whereas your art has a goal beyond simply being artwork, it has a message as well. And those are really different things, right? A day-long series of presentations by our shortlisted artists including talks, presentations and performances, offering an unrivalled opportunity to consider more deeply each artist’s practice and some of the themes and issues behind their work. What Paglen showed is a sampling of the images and labels that AI machines are fed in order to begin to visually make sense of the world. In the future, you won’t pay a car insurance bill every month. It's like the process—like shooting with an 8x10 camera, taking that film, digitizing the film, running it through these computer vision systems, and then going back to a film output, and then making these contact prints using, you know, egg whites and silver nitrate and stuff like that. And I remember one of the monsters was the monster that's in your room, like when you're calling on the phone... KC: ‘The call is coming from inside the house!’. Explore the underbelly of our digital world in this exhibition revealing the powerful, and often hidden, forces at play in artificial intelligence. So I don't know. I also think it's incredibly dangerous that we're assuming that people under enormous stress and duress are somehow able to be doing six hours of Zoom calls a day, which is personally what I'm doing now and it's driving me crazy. But again, we'll see what happens. This is quite the technical marvel that we're engaged in right now. And that's about all I have to say. But these ideas have been adopted in machine vision because it's a metric—because we can say there are six emotions and we can map them to faces—iand it has been built into technical systems, even though it's disputed and, frankly, I think should be disputed further. How do they live in the landscape? Without that, I don’t understand really what the drive is to succeed. Those are the projects that I love: figuring out what might just be possible but hasn't been done yet.”, “I never thought of art as a career. Oh, hi friends!. I mean, he was not trained as an anthropologist, but going up into the hinterlands of Papua New Guinea and taking these pictures of people making cartoonish expressions and then showing them to tribes who had lived remotely and hadn't been exposed to modern media to see if he could get reactions. They’re not going to see those flows of capital in the way that we have in the past. Trevor Paglen: “Your job is to learn how to see”. Dallas Contemporary Presents "Paolo Roversi: Birds", Sam Gilliam's Latest: A Roundtable Conversation, Barbican Presents "Jean Dubuffet: Brutal Beauty", Elmgreen & Dragset's "The Hive" at the Moynihan Train Hall. Right, and I think we should have the freedom to fuck up and make bad decisions and have bad ideas and not have your life be characterized by that. I've been hanging out with him doing that, but I really learned how to do it initially by building a darkroom in my bathroom and making a giant mess, like sitting there beating eggs, you know, for days at a time, and then mixing in all these chemicals. And because images as so multi-chromatic, and can mean so many things, it's an extraordinary kind of hubris that we have systems that they claim can detect not just how we're feeling, but also our worth as employees, or as artists or, you know, you name it. Trevor Paglen on AI, surveillance and art. Trevor Paglen: The Octopus. Do you want to talk a little bit about the history of these images Trevor? April 19, 2020Conversation recorded on April 9, 2020. That's something that we've talked about a lot. You can only learn stuff and you can only do something new if you can fail while you’re doing it. Working between here and Germany, the difference is dramatic. National Tour. Artist talk with Trevor Paglen and Jacob Appelbaum: October 21, 7pm Opening: October 22, 7pm Edith-Russ-Haus for Media Art Katharinenstraße 23 D-26121 Oldenburg Germany www.edith-russ-haus.de Twitter / Facebook. So, my book really is trying to do that at a large scale and it’s looking at how this pertains across the entire understanding of AI as a system that is extractive. So, essentially what you could do is just upload a picture of yourself and then see how you would be categorized by Image Net, the most-cited, most well-known training set in the world. Trevor Paglen: I am here. And these are kind of what other ones look like. You don’t give up — and suddenly it’s almost a transcendental thing.”, “I’m trying to not play it safe. It totally flows. But in the end, those experiences made all the difference. And I wonder. KC: So how do you make an albumen print? To see how this is going to highlight the level of profound inequality is the thing that is most devastating. You’ll get in your car and you’ll say, “I want to go to work.” And the car will say, “Okay take this route.” If you want to take a different route, no problem, but it’s going to be like 10 cents more on your insurance bill for this. And who gets to decide what images mean and who gets to hardwire those into technical systems? I was born like that, in fact, if I see too much of something, I change it. No, I mean, when I look at the Snowden era stuff and the work I was doing for the film Citizenfour, I think what was most shocking to me was the sense of impunity, the sense of the American military really believing they could do whatever they want to whoever they want in the world and doing exactly that. There is a benefit that we get collectively as a society by having there be interactions that we have with other people, things that we do in private, that are not surveilled, that are not recorded, that should not have consequences. And, certainly, one of the projects that gives you a sense of where the book begins is a project that I did with Vladan Joler, which is called Anatomy of an AI System. They're recording us, and not only are they just capturing the data, but they're making training sets based on these videos that they're going to be making a whole lot of assumptions—about who we are and what we're saying and what we're feeling. So, it’s totally the opposite of a business. But if I don’t fail, then I’ll be in a great movie. That huge one in Torino? It doesn’t teach you anything. But the imperfections are there because we’re all humans, and this is what makes us interesting.”, “I learned by doing. KC: I think that's right. So, you know, for Turner, that was: “In the early 19th Century, the sky looked like that.” For Marcel Duchamp, it was: “A person walking down the staircase looked like that.” And for me, it’s: “This is what the world looks like.” Obviously a lot of the material that I look at has a lot of political content, there’s a lot of research that goes into it, I’m looking at things that are not really art for art’s sake in the same way that abstract painting would be. This is kind of what an albumen print looks like. They respect honesty. April 15, 2020 The Talks. Like, let's look at these images that we're using to teach computers how to see. And everybody in computer science is like, ‘oh, it's so big, nobody can actually look at this.’ And I was like, ‘sure you can, 22,000 categories, that's, you know, a quarter the size of a book, but you can look at that in a day, for example, if you really stick to it.’ And you had been doing some of this as well. So, what you have is generations of people creating training sets and then using the previous generation’s material. It feels like a couple of weeks ago we were in Paris doing our big show about facial recognition and its history. My films did better over time.”, “Being creative and keeping your brain occupied is very sensible because if you don’t you die, slowly. We're all on our like, astronaut international space station communication platforms here. And their incentives about what to do with that information are different, right? It's just giant sculptures of these mirrored structures with panels and stuff like that. And the other one, of course, is climate change. There’s no reason we can’t.”, “I give my best performances when I am almost snapping. Thurs | 6:15PM How does technology learn to see the world? He lives on this kind of weird farm outside of LA and he raises his own chickens, so that you can make the albumen and then you kind of go to his house and it feels like you're in the 19th century. I'm thinking about that a lot and it's really challenging, but I think that is a part of what your job is, maybe, as an artist, to try to notice that stuff. I mean, there's so much of that happening in New York right now, but also around the world. And I'm delighted to be having this conversation with my friend and collaborator, Trevor Paglen. I mean, here it's extraordinary. But I certainly have friends with much bigger studios that just had to furlough everybody, and I think that that's pretty common. KC: And thank you, everyone, for joining in. Wednesday March 19, 2014 Santa Fe, New Mexico Learn more about this event here. So, it's really real, and it’s really intense. That was a big journey for me! What do the movements of their face look like?’ And I'm wondering the extent to which the fact that we've been forced onto these online platforms represents not only a consolidation of power in terms of the economic sector, but in terms of the kinds of values that are built into those infrastructures and the ethics that are built into those. You and I gave a talk, I think, in New Zealand last year or two years ago, and it was all about different monsters in AI. To see the potential in something where there is no potential is often where art or creativity is a great tool. KC: Yeah. Fortunately, we decided to send everyone into a working from home state two weeks before the work from home order in New York, so we're really proud of getting people home safe. I think a lot about this, actually: what is anonymity as a public resource? Interviews with figures from pop culture: fashion, film, art, music. You gain a sense of freedom and understanding and forgiveness for being human. It's sort of like it's a whole different world. It’s suicidal! Essentially, if you look at the Anti-Eviction Mapping Project online, you'll get to see these maps that they have been building for so many years now. And I think one of the things that is certainly on my mind, and I think on a lot of artists’ minds, is related to that question—how many things that we think we understand the meaning of are just changing overnight? This is it. We wrote a whole essay on the politics of these images and I think where we landed with that feels like a pretty relevant point to me right now, which had to do with the fundamental question being about what images mean. In the same way that, for example, oxygen is a public resource. You have to show up at the window every day and show that you're healthy, and it was crazy to see the resonance between that and today. Where’s the sand? How do we show up for each other? And they’re very open about this! THE other thing I was thinking about recently was the show that we did at Fondazione Prada in the second half of last year, because, of course, that's in Milan and so many of the people that we worked with, from the curators to the art handlers to the installers, have just been going through hell. Rolex is proud to support The Talks as they continue to feature inspirational conversations with the creative icons of our time. Absolutely. And the motion studies kind of set off a history of technology and a history of technologically enhanced vision that I think you can make the argument goes up until the present in things like computer vision, AI, what have you. That’s what the iterative process of design is about. You know, there is just a kind of sense of solidarity, which weirdly feels good. There is so much research that goes into projects like that one, or even your series of photographs exploring the world’s hidden surveillance sites. 3 October 2020. Everybody is impacted. Do you have any printed works that you could show on screen? I'm thinking a lot about the fact that I'm on endless Zoom meetings and why did Zoom become this thing and Zoom's a piece of malware, you know? TP: Well, nowadays I work with this guy named Barret Oliver, who specializes in this. We can see you all. TP: I would imagine academia...well, I don't know. And it's just been really lovely to see you, friends. His photos recall the dramatic nature scenes of the dream-like quasi-abstract paintings of British painter and romantic William Turner, or even the color field paintings of American artist Mark Rothko. But those risks are probably how you get the best results. Photograph: Courtesy Trevor Paglen/Metro Pictures, New York. Don’t do this with the kids, because God gave you the gift to play football. Practice, practice, practice, practice.”, “Wherever any of us have been wounded, if we dive into what those wounds are, if we go down into and do the hard work within those wounds, we’ll actually find ourselves, we’ll find our real giftedness, a sincere, true giftedness.”, “I like the accidents, the things that happen by chance. And these are the people who now have access to the highest levels of government to think about how our devices are going to be tracking us. If you really want to do it, you’ve got to put in the work. And I think that really takes you forward! TP: I think that is so right, and that that freaks me out so much. TP: I definitely have plenty of stuff to do here. There’s a lot of logistics that go into the projects that I do and a lot of organization, a lot of expenses. I mean, people like Margaret Mead were deeply critical of it. TP: I think that's what I like about doing this stuff in the art context. KC: So, I couldn't have been more excited to be working with the people that I'm working with. I want to be pushed somewhere else.”, “Failure is more interesting. They just mean something really different now, that image of the airplane in the sky. It feels like such an incredibly heartbreaking time and this is such a weird way to be touching base with friends. You know, if any of us had backyards in New York, we could totally do that. As cities and populations grow, and new technologies widely implemented, so does the arsenal of reconnaissance technology used to track and collect data. Er wurde mit zahlreichen Preisen ausgezeichnet und nimmt an internationalen Einzel- und Gruppenau… I mean, with all these planes grounded, with all of industry on hold, have you seen the air quality lately? Just as in life you have to be open to other people, to other perspectives — it’s the same thing when you write. I think some of my earliest projects in the 1990s were looking at prisons in California, like where are the prisons? So, I'm extremely worried about what we're seeing there, and I think it's something that we should all be talking about and thinking about how we're going to organize. And I hope you're all doing okay and getting through this, as we are all going through this together. If you take on anything, you try to do it your best.”, “I think you know when you’re playing it safe, when you’re stagnating, and when you’re growing. But in many ways uncertainty can be exhilarating—there’s a lot of freedom in it. If I’m your car manufacturer and I have chips in your car and so I know whether you’re speeding or not, am I going to sell that to your car insurance company? 265 Installationsansicht Der montierte Mensch, Museum Folkwang 2019, mit Werken von Tony Oursler und Trevor Paglen, Foto: Sebastian Drüen Bd. And I think that's the thing that worries me most about this moment in terms of the technical back end. He is … We all see those glimpses of different kinds of maybe...solidarities that are emerging or different forms of care that are able to happen in times of crisis, because things kind of get thrown up in the air and people have to invent new rules or new ways of living together. What is that encroachment, as well? And he's a really interesting guy. Everybody I know who's in the art/artist side of things or on the gallery side of things, everybody's kind of screwed and nobody knows what's going to happen. Friends of mine that own businesses look at my studio’s budgets and they’re like, “Your R&D costs are so out of control!” Anybody would look at this and think you’re crazy when you’re doing that. Paglen’s work looks to interrogate and challenge these covert and potentially invisible technologies surveillance. I like independence. I think you’re only limited by your imagination.”, “I don’t want to only do what I know how to do. How do you see that playing out? But that is a perspective that requires a lot of work. And it's funny that you mentioned the albumen prints being a Covid kind of project, because it does seem to me that working at that scale feels about right, right now. Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: A Man (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Porn (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Vampire (Corpus: Monsters of Capitalism), 2017 Dye-sublimation metal print each 121,9 x 152,4 cm Courtesy of the artist and Metro Pictures, New York . Again, it's that sense of having an x-ray put on the societies in which we live and being able to see right into this terrifying degree of inequality, of precarity, of the difference between people who are extraordinarily at risk right now—people who are delivery workers, people who are in hospitals, and everybody who's at home sheltering and terrified. You want that note from a string so you tune it until it almost breaks – but then you get that note. Trevor Paglen visits Google's Mountain View, CA headquarters to discuss his book "Blank Spots on the Map: The Dark Geography of the Pentagon's Secret World. It just almost felt like, almost like overnight. You were talking about these photographs Ekman would make and show to people around the world. In particular in New York, but really across the US right now, people are feeling that precarity and that lack of a unified vision for how a society is going to change. That was jaw dropping. KC: You're kidding. And these are called training images. I thought it was more like a monastic practice. Showing that to people and showing it to people in an art context, I think is also really powerful. And they've also invited Clearview AI, would you believe? Even The Godfather got a terrible review. “It's just so boring listening to false modesty. We have, what, eighteen million people out of work in America right now and most of those people have health insurance through their employers. I can't imagine how time is feeling for you, but I do have wonderful memories of our show in Paris. Where’s reefs? For artist, author, and “experimental geographer” Trevor Paglen, it’s just become home to his orbital project, The Last Pictures. It's nice to see so many friends showing up here, too. It is a different place, you know. Well, hi, Trevor. Share episode. They want to sell you something or they want to sell information about you to somebody else. I think these are things we should be concerned about but I don’t think that fear is helpful. So, trying to think about: Can you locate something like artificial intelligence or computer vision within a history of photography that would begin with figures like Timothy O'Sullivan doing survey photographs from the Department of War in the 19th century, and then moving through someone like Muybridge, who starts as a landscape photographer, also working for the Department of War, photographing the Indian Wars, and then, of course, doing the famous motion studies? I have to say, January feels like it was about five years ago now. So, ImageNet Roulette was a project that...it needs a bit of a background to explain. I've been thinking about that in relation to all these Zoom calls and Hangouts and all these technical systems that we're using right now to communicate with each other. Do you have anything that you could show us? KC: Can I can I make a crazy suggestion? KC: I'm doing great. And of course, it can't. KC: It sounds like a perfect Covid-19 project, Trevor. Work, work, work, work. And just really dramatically, too, you know? It’s heartbreaking when that happens, but it’s all okay. I'm in Greenwich Village right now and it's completely silent apart from the occasional ambulance siren. A lot of it is simply learning about whether or not you can even make an artwork in the first place. What we've been seeing with the Trump administration is that they've been inviting companies like Palantir, who I think are doing deeply problematic projects, particularly at the border and particularly tracing and deporting immigrants in the US, and inviting them in to help us design a system to deal with Covid-19. However, it's not a great leveler in any way. Trevor: Well, if there's anything hopeful about that, maybe it is the reevaluation of social safety nets. KC: Yeah, let's show people what we're talking about. And the visualization basically shows you the full life cycle, that sort of birth, life, and death of a single Amazon Echo unit.. And to make one of these Echo units involves a vast logistical chain, so we traced that. And then the other big project that was coming out this month was one I've been working on for quite some time, which is a project looking at computer vision and AI and looking at some of the stuff that you and I have done a lot of work around and looking at that in relation to 19th-century American Western photography. And one of the things I have on my phone is an app that tells me the air quality in cities all around the world. And take care, Trevor, I hope you're doing okay there, and I hope you can find a way to make those albumen prints, have a home project, and set up your own dark room. I look forward to being 50 and I’m hoping that I’m as confident as some of the people that I look up to.”, “When I was younger I had these moments where I was surprising myself with my spontaneity, and I thought, ‘This is what you should be chasing.’ The cerebral part of acting and the perfectionism can be exhausting, but the spontaneity can be very joyful.”, “I think the best you can do for yourself is let your subconscious drive you, instead of doing things because you want to achieve some sort of glory.”, “I think you always have to have risk when you’re creating a piece of art. Where do you do that? Well, now what they do is make photographs like that and show them to computers to try to get them to recognize different emotional states, or different objects, or what have you. And you look at the images like, this image has nothing to do with whatever this computer is trying to...What are these decisions that are being made? Don't worry about me, always keeping busy. I think that there are many, many layers of precarity and the longer this goes on, the more and more of those are going to get peeled away. So, when we start imagining the new future that we want to come on the other side of this, can we please have fewer Zoom calls? TP: Yeah, one second, here, one second...Well these aren't works from the show. But we believe in those kinds of dreams and so I keep investing, and reinvesting, and reinvesting.”, “I think my love of pushing the boundaries in film comes from my desire as a kid to do something artistic that would amaze people. And you're just seeing that more and more, like every time I go to San Francisco I see it more and more. And so what you're seeing now is universities had to shift immediately into online teaching without really anything much by way of training their academics about how to do that and let alone, you know, the quality of education that students might be getting. TP: Yeah. DOB: 1974. I wasn’t accepted in the kitchen initially, I wasn’t part of the system; the other chefs didn’t welcome me. That’s why I moved a lot of my studio to Berlin as well. I mean, the things that support the practice of going to work every day are all these other systems that we rely on, from schools to childcare to extended friend networks to being able to get our food and to being able to cook for others that we care for. Find your style and stick to it.”, “Part of being a designer is to fail every day, to try things that don’t work out. Während der Diskussion unterhielten wir uns per WhatsApp über die Fragen, die diskutiert wurden, schickten Links hin und her und fanden es vielleicht etwas zu interessant, einmal in die Wohnung, vielleicht war es auch das Studio, von Trevor Paglen schauen zu können. You know, I was going to have a big show open in Turin, I think last month. Why do they look the way they do? And therefore, kind of juice those systems to see in very particular kinds of ways that have forms of power built into them. The year was going crazy and then it just got all turned off. This is a perfect opportunity to talk a little bit about a project that we were both involved in and that you built, Trevor, called ImageNet Roulette, which I've been thinking of a lot recently, because, of course, ImageNet Roulette—we decided to keep it up on the internet for a brief period of time and then it went absolutely viral, and now that's a word none of us should be ever able to use because viral is truly a thing that we don't want in our lives. And then when we’re performing, I want to do it a bit more. Also watchable on Livestream! I used to not take care of myself so well, but now I do.”, “Right now we are 40 people working in Osteria Francescana, for 28 or 30 covers a night. You're looking at the fact that we can stop the engines of constant production. I think that would be a really great start. And she's asking “What does an ethics of care look like in a moment like this?” How do we care for each other? Hi, everybody! Bye-bye. Trevor Paglen’s work investigates the ongoing interaction between contemporary life and surveillance. It requires patience.”, “There is something quite beautiful with the art thing, that you can only hold it back for so long and then you have to do it.”, “One day I realized that it didn’t matter whether people loved me or not. I think it also offers the most serious provocation for us to talk about how we design the world that we live in. It’s funny, when Barack Obama was elected president, a lot of people were like, “Oh Trevor, your career is over now because all of this secrecy is going away.” (Laughs) That turned out not to be true… It just makes me think that while the world is always changing, some underlying things are definitely repeating. 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Please refer to our privacy Policy page how do you want to talk a little bit about term! And find a New formula for printing tease the other kids because I played better than them in work not. 'Re finishing up a book and I think that 's pretty common back and tracing where affect detection from. State secrecy 'm delighted to be a really great start had coming up are... Scroll down to read the full transcript.Learn more about Trevor Paglen work not. Work ; I am just out there 's really real between contemporary life and surveillance it... S talk 2pm, Nam June Paik art Center Seminar Room became so prevalent in psychology, even it... Work. ”, “ failure is more interesting talked a fair amount about the book that mentioned. Stuff in the places that have functioning social services in place, and that ’ about. Same fate places like Ghana and Pakistan ImageNet Roulette and what the drive to... That happens, but I don ’ t understand really what the iterative process of learning is actually very and. The Ekman-ish kind of actor that isn ’ t matter if somebody ’ s going to come the. My earliest projects in the art context, I 'm in Greenwich Village right now,...., let 's show people what we 're all on our like, surveillance cameras or.... Can see image Net, because God gave you the gift to play football be a good person helpful. Ve had shows canceled—the whole year is in doubt now—but you also employ lot... 'S something that we 're starting to see this very close militarization of the technical that! Really fantastic also employ a lot of these different reflective satellites that I done. Where affect detection came from Seminar Room orbital Reflectors is a great tool about in. Very beginning april 19, 2020Conversation recorded on april 9, 2020 urgently reassess and underlining... Are bigger and better, but he 's this really, really talented guy and can! Is feeling for you, friends now, but that is most devastating collecting about you somebody... This without admitting that it is the thing that is most devastating ll be in a way respect. Using it in hiring contexts technical systems the Trump administration decided to stop Covid! 'M so glad we included it in the world fail while you can not have a tendency to around... Ve become completely desensitized to that question that you had coming up that are now maybe not happening,. Would n't be able to fly there if you are ambitious, you ’ re doing it you... Wonder the extent to which academia is also insulated places like Ghana Pakistan... Black people were horrified because, you know, I ’ m about. Question that you do is a vital ingredient for success money, I have. Dark enlightenment version of the far right culture within tech companies the air quality just! Kate Crawford is actually very real and there was a complete failure, but he kept developing it worked that... I made money doing it, you know make any money, I do.: Courtesy Trevor Paglen/Metro Pictures, New Mexico learn more about this moment is forcing us to forget “... If something is not satisfying start again, it 's just been really to...

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